Full Episode Transcription (with Timestamps)

0:40 Charlene Lincoln:  Welcome back to another episode of The Fertility Hour. I’m your host Charlene Lincoln. I say it every time that I’m highly encouraging you to do that if you go to FertilityHour.com, there is a Free Report section—expertly written reports by my podcast partner Dr. Iva Keene. One is How to Restore Fertility and Get Pregnant Naturally. It’s a 39-page report. Amazingly written. I highly encourage you to download it. Then please subscribe, comment. I read your comments. It means the world to us, the support that you’re giving us. Because we work really hard to get the best guests. We search the globe for you.

So today, I’m really fortunate to have Elizabeth Willett. She’s a senior herbalist for The Natural Fertility Company. She holds a Master of Arts degree in Holistic Health Studies with a specialization in herbalism from St. Catherine University in St. Paul, MN. She is a certified herbalist and brings with her 12 years of study in Eclectic herbalism, and too many years of self-taught knowledge to count. In additional, she has a love of nutrition, gardening, foraging and wild harvesting plants, playing in the rain and sun and putting her feet in the dirt. She is a mommy of two sons and a wife. She has three dogs, two gray tree frogs, an American toad, and several guppies. I don’t think guppies stay guppies for long, but we’ll talk about that.

She believes in order to be well and heal, we need to look at our health from a holistic perspective with the belief that our health is influenced by the interconnection of our physical body (our emotions and thoughts), our spiritual beliefs and rituals, cultural identity and practices, the community of which we are a part of, and our environment; all of these things working together to lead us to overall health and well-being. Her work with many clients who haven’t realized the ways that neglecting their minds can impact their fertility journey or success that has helped grow her passion in the area of the interconnection of the mind and our physical body’s ability to heal.

Alright. Well, welcome Elizabeth. Are you Liz or are you Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Willett: Thank you, Charlene. I go by Elizabeth, yes.

2:58 CL: Elizabeth. Okay. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Wow. I mean, when you’re talking about health from a holistic perspective and then you’re putting ‘health is influenced by the interconnection of our body, our emotions, the rituals, the community,’ I mean it kind of makes me think no wonder a lot of us feel sort of fragmented and not our best selves because, I don’t know, a lot of us don’t have all of that, right? The rituals, the community, the everything, I mean we’ve kind of departed from that. So it’s going to be interesting, yeah.

EW: It is. I definitely think that the work is harder for those of us who don’t understand or aren’t connected with our community or understand our past or our heritage or who don’t value that. A lot of us grow up not knowing those things, where so many generations beyond our “ancestors” that we don’t have a direct connection or haven’t been taught how we are connected to our grandmothers and their mothers and their mothers and their mothers, and how that looks in a world where we like to see what that looks like. But a lot of us probably do feel what that looks like. We’re just not sure where those feelings are coming from.

4:20 CL: When you’re working with a woman or a couple, do you mostly work with women or do you work with both?

EW: Mostly with women. It tends to be the wife or the female who reaches out to us for support, and if her husband needs support, she’s the one working with us although that’s kind of shifting lately. We have had some more and more men reach out to us too.

4:43 CL: I love that. And I hope it shifts more and more. When you’re talking about all these aspects that really holistically define true health for us, I mean, that’s overwhelming because if we’re dealing with fertility issues, that’s extremely overwhelming. We’re trying to get information and we’re looking to you to prescribe herbs that will help with the fertility process but then you bring in all that. Like, how do you not overwhelm someone if they’re like, “Well, I don’t have rituals. Maybe I don’t feel like I have a strong cultural identity.” How does that all work together?

EW: Great question. So at The Natural Fertility Company, what we do is educate and empower women to make natural fertility health choices—natural choices that will upboost to their fertility health, make them feel better. Women and couples come to us with the idea that we’re going to suggest to them what to take in terms of herb supplements and which natural therapies to use. And what I do in my work as herbalist is I kind of try to read beyond the lines. I try to read beyond “what herb can I take?” That question, and dig a little bit deeper to get to know them. Because one herb is not for every single person. It’s not a black and white issue. Two women don’t experience a fertility health issue in the very same way.

So my job is to be a detective and help them be a detective with their own body. I don’t go into all of those aspects of holistic health with them if someone doesn’t want to go there. That’s how I don’t overwhelm them. I don’t want to be the one to overwhelm them because they’re already overwhelmed. I don’t want to add to that pressure because that pressure interferes with their success or their program, their ability to have the energy to keep going and trying something else and speaking another person’s expertise. Right?

My focus in terms of all of what is holistic in terms of our health really comes into play when someone is connected already but is having a little bit more of a struggle. And because I work with women all over the world and women of all different cultures, there are many women who have community and who stay at home raising kids and are with their mom and grandma and may even live in the same dwelling. There are women who are incredibly spiritual. There are women who are incredibly religious. And I just go there with them if they want to go there.

We certainly don’t put pressure on learning your history and your lineage. We don’t put pressure on being spiritual and becoming spiritual in order to have success. Ultimately, my point is we meet people where they’re at.

7:43 CL: Okay. That sounds very fair. Whatever direction they want to go, you support that, it sounds like.

EW: Yes. With the exception of the mind-body piece. Because I truly do feel like every one single of us needs to have a mind connection to our body. That is the one part of all of what you read in my bio, that I feel like we each can benefit from no matter where we are, if we’re on the fertility journey or not. Obviously that will be the focus of this talk. But even in my everyday life with my kids and myself, I know that I have to connect with what’s going on in my physical body or connect my physical body with my mind. So that is the place where I do go with a lot of the people who reach out to me because I’ve seen success and I know stress; and I know the stress of this journey, the fertility journey. I feel like there are so many useful tools that people can rely on and use.

8:47 CL: Does that make sense to most women who come to you when you talk about the mind-body connection? The reason I ask is if they are going to a fertility clinic which is actually an IVF clinic, I’m assuming most IVF clinics don’t really talk about that aspect of it and so does that seem like, “oh, why is that important?” or it resonates with most women and they go, “Oh, I see that I’m sort of disconnected in that sense and I would like to integrate mind and body more”?

EW: I would say that it’s probably 50-50. When we have clients reach out to us have a fertility consultation, they know their stress levels and we ask them that. They admit it, they tell us what they do. We talk and a lot of times we relate the mind-body connection to your stress levels—not only your emotions but your stress levels. That seems more relatable to people. Mind-body connection can kind of seem “woo-woo” still. I wish it didn’t. I’m working on it but it does. And yet, the people who email us who may not be thinking quite in terms of how are my stress levels impacting my health or my fertility health, so we see both sides of the coin there.

I’m sorry to interrupt. Oh, my barking dogs.

10:10 CL: It’s okay. I know. I’m glad that the Amazon guy came earlier because my dog went crazy, so it’s your dog this time. I know. Let me make a little prayer that mine doesn’t. It’s okay. It’s a conversation and life happens. My 5-year-old walk in, I don’t know.

EW: Anyway, in regards to your question about IVF, there is counseling. When someone is going through the IVF process, I believe there’s some level of counseling about the process, about the financial piece of it, but I don’t really truly know how far in depth they go into the mind and the stress level part of IVF, and what happens if this isn’t a success and how that feels emotionally. I’m not sure, but that’s really covered.

CL: I don’t think so, but maybe I’m completely wrong. I’m sure a lot of fertility clinics are trying to kind of add different components that will help. Okay, so here’s a common thing. If you go to any infertility-type forum or read comments, I mean, you go on Instagram, people are saying, “Oh yeah, so and so told me that I just need to relax. Like, they’re giving me this big lightbulb moment. Oh, I forgot to relax and that’s the reason why I’m having trouble conceiving.” I understand that that’s really frustrating advice and it’s not helpful like, “calm down” or whatever. But yeah, you were talking about stress, but what are some of the things that really help people deal with the stress of infertility? What are some tools that you have found to be really effective?

EW: You’re absolutely right. Telling someone to calm down or to relax is really the wrong verbiage. It’s gut instinct to do that because we love and care when we’re talking with friends or particularly on these forums when someone’s on your side. But to hear it from a doctor like nonstop?

The way that I approach this topic, the “oh gosh, just relax” feeling I get when I’m working with someone is I encourage them to feel. Don’t relax. Feel what you’re feeling. Think about what you’re feeling. Experience that emotion. If you need to be angry, be angry. If you need to cry, cry. If you need to punch a pillow. Of course don’t harm yourself or anyone else or anything like that, but sit with that emotion and be mindful of it. So that leads me into somehow to take control of these thoughts and feelings instead of just “relax”. I really think it’s important for women to believe in themselves, in their ability to heal and the program they’re on and the doctor that they’ve chosen and the therapist they’re working with. There has to be a level of belief and we need to sit and ask ourselves no matter what, “are my beliefs dictating my fertility reality?” “Do I really believe in my heart that I can do this? That I will heal, that I will get my period back, that my uterus won’t have fibroids? That I’ll have a baby?” Whatever it is, on the step to your end goal or on the journey to your end goal.

I feel like because infertility is such an emotional rollercoaster, we have to really take time to quiet the mind, check in with your heart, realign with who you are. Who was I? Who was Elizabeth? Or Sharon? Or Charlene? Or Susan? Or whomever before this infertility journey started. Who was she? Can I reconnect with her? Can I find the pieces of her that will guide me forward and that I really loved and that I want back now? Find joy. Find some sort of joy; how to find and sustain joy.

Now these things aren’t going to look the same for everybody. I’ll share more a little bit of the science. I’m not going to get too science-y but I’ll share specifics about what we’ve seen that have been helpful.

I also think mindfulness, I mentioned this, but be mindful. Be aware of your thoughts. Write them down. Keep a journal. If it’s helpful to write on a page all your negative thoughts and then take it outside into the driveway or a fire pit or whatever and burn it and let it go and release it, that’s fine. If you need some sort of ritual around observing your thoughts, that’s cool. But really keep track of surroundings and internal sensations and how you feel, when you feel. Just really be mindful because being mindful can help you work through those emotions but also trigger remembrance of when things happen. Does something happen when I’m about to ovulate? Does something happen when I’m in midluteal phase and kind of starting to PMS before my period? Stuff like that can be really helpful when you’re working with a practitioner but also to yourself. It’s like, “wait a second. This is starting to show me a pattern. I maybe can move through the same an easier way now that I know it’s happening or coming,” or whatever.

A good example is from me, I have a day of rage of PMS. That’s it. One day where anything can trigger me and make me so angry that I just want to throw something at the wall. And I don’t know why. And it’s silly. But I think being connected enough with yourself to understand when that’s coming and when it’s happening so you can step back and retreat and not try to trigger any worse emotion or feeling around it is important.

15:54 CL: I think there’s herbs for that, Elizabeth. Because I’ve taken, oh gosh. But yeah, we all know. I mean, not everyone experiences PMS the same way. But you could be like sometimes when you don’t know it’s coming, “Oh my gosh, why am I getting so reactive?” Or, “Why is my husband, everything he’s saying just is so annoying?”

EW: Right? Right?

16:16 CL: And then I end up taking a lot of herbs to try to ease that.

EW: Right. So do I. Thank goodness. A couple more things.

16:23 CL: Yeah, go for it. Thank you.

EW: I also think that it’s important for women to compare not. Try to stop jealousy and resentment towards others who are having a journey that you wish you were on. Because yours is not theirs, right? Apples to oranges. Journeys are different. And fertility jealousy is a tough one. It can be really hurtful.

Then of course to strengthen your mind-body connection, which is my passion, through reducing stress and using a variety of natural therapies that can be helpful, and I can go into that if you’d like.

Lastly, seeking support. I can’t forget this piece. Because so many women try to go at it alone, try to go the emotional component of fertility alone because they’ve already got appointment after appointment and they’ve had all these people tell them all this stuff and they don’t want one more person to have to schedule and go see. But I really think that talking to a fertility specialist, a counselor, a fertility therapist can help improve communication between couples, can help in decision-making processes, can help settle disagreements or clarify any level of misunderstanding; can help you feel better because you get to vent. Everyone deserves to be heard and to have help with feelings if they are needed and are that level. We don’t want anybody struggling through the emotions of this journey alone and there are people out there to help.

17:43 CL: Okay. I love everything that you said. Let me go backwards with the last thing, the ‘fertility jealousy’. Now that there’s social media and you get to see all the announcements and things like that, give us a tool or whatever you have. Your best friend, your sister-in-law, your cousin, your person from high school. Okay, so there’s another pregnancy announcement. Obviously you can, one, I guess get off social media because it’s just too much of a trigger for you, which I don’t think it’s a bad idea. But okay, so you want to continue to be on Facebook and things like that but it’s kind of eating you alive. How do you congratulate someone and be happy with dealing with your own emotions around it?

EW: So I do think a short social media detox is really important, particularly if it’s triggering repeatedly regularly, right? If it’s triggering something within you regularly. Or just simply unfollowing someone for a short period of time. To be honest, they may not even recognize your absence. Okay, I mean, I know that sounds a tiny bit cruel but it’s the way social media is when you’re following 3000 people or have that many followers, right? But beyond that, a few more realistic tools, I think that if it’s someone really close to you that’s having the success, remember Facebook ‘friends’ might not all be really friends. But if someone’s really close to you and they’re having a fertility success and it’s bringing out some jealousy, it’s okay to just not say anything until you’re ready. It’s okay to say congratulations because we often do that in type, right, and then move on and work through your own emotions. It’s okay to not go to a baby shower. It really is. It’s okay to just take a little step back.

I think that some of the tips I just mentioned in brief like journaling out your feelings, talking with your partner about how that’s making you feel or your mom or your grandma or whomever is your trusted confidante and is really important. I just feel like the best way to address success of someone who is super close to you when you’re not having success really is to step back and kind of be more quiet about it. Because you certainly don’t want to say anything or type anything or do anything that’s going to cause them harm in their place of joy. But really just seeking support in the places where you need to help work through those emotions whether it’s a forum or a trusted confidante or a counselor, whomever that might be. Reaching out to someone like myself or the team I’m on. It ultimately is just that. But if you wanted to use stress reduction tools, there’s certainly beyond journaling.

There’s certainly things like the Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) that’s very easy and you can do it anywhere. Essential oils are fantastic. They’re so commonplace now. Women use them all the time. They can be really helpful for just creating some calm, can bring down the emotions just a little bit. Physical exercise is outstanding. It’s amazing how physical exercise can help reduce the stress response. Qigong. Fertility yoga. Walk; a daily walk outside in nature if you love that. Or a quick run on the treadmill. A trip to the gym as long as it’s not crazy amounts of exercise that you’re overexerting yourself. Meditation. Relaxation and breathing. All of these things can be tools that can be useful in those times when all of a sudden there’s an announcement on a social media platform or in the mail that says, “come, join my joy.”

Did I miss anything? Prayer. We talked about spirituality and religion. Prayer certainly works. Church groups, youth groups, spiritual groups.

Massage. Self fertility massage is outstanding. So there are lots of things you can learn. And it’s important also to have a toolkit. We talk in terms of toolkit in what we do. It’s not just one thing that it’s probably not going to be just one thing that you’re going to rely on to help you with your emotions or reduce the stress. It might be a multitude of things. One that will work better for certain situations than another.

22:23 CL: Yeah, set up your toolkit. Okay, so there’s a couple things. One, I have a podcast with Nick Ortner. He’s really big in the EFT world, and it’s pretty cool. He takes me through a session of tapping technique where we do all the fertility triggers. So if you’re curious about tapping or EFT, you can search out. His name is Nick Ortner on the Fertility Hour website. It’s interesting and I’ve been guilty of this too. Sometimes people, you ask them about their stress levels and they say, “Well, I don’t really have a stressful life,” but it’s really what’s called perceived stress. Right? I mean, we’re not running from lions anymore and most of us are not dealing with survival issues. But sometimes our nervous systems can feel as if we’re under constant threat, right? So how does that kind of come out for people where do you ever talk to clients where they go, “I don’t really have a stressful life,” and you kind of have to dig a little deeper to make them realize, “actually, you are under a lot of stress”?

EW: Yeah, frequently. Women come to us explaining their irregular menstrual cycles but they have had all the tests under the sun and there’s nothing we can even really figure out that was missed. So then we take a look at their diet and we take a look at their exercise routines. Typically there’s a meal that’s skipped or pretty highly processed snacks or some binge snacking going on. The snack category gets filled bigger than the breakfast category or more.

They’re not sleeping well. They’re waking in the middle of the night. They’re having a hot flash here or there. They’re complaining because they have a little bit more acne. They’re saying that their PMS has changed or they had one sort of conversation with their partner that wasn’t the best. Or they’re cold all the time. I know all of these things are symptoms of physical imbalance but when someone’s had their thyroid tested and their hormone levels tested and they have been ovulating up until now and their cycles have been seemingly regular and there’s just something that shifted quick, I typically go to stress. Well, what’s been going on in the last month in your life? Has anything happened at work? Has anything happened within your family? Have you changed your exercise routine? Have you started eating differently and why did that happen? Did you travel? Travel is stressful. Believe it or not, while we go on a vacation to relax, being in the airport causes stress. I mean, you have to go up to all these ropes, delays in airplanes, people all around you (for those of us who are introverts). You know, even travel can be stressful. So I do have to step back and help them think about what could be at play here. Why is there a physical manifestation of a symptom when their seemingly shouldn’t be one? A lot of people do have the physical issue they’re dealing with so that’s a different story. But stress can come out physically.

Changes in body odor. I’ve even had women say, “This is just different and it’s not right.” Well, are you stressed?

26:09 CL: Right. What’s the other thing? We were talking about perceived stress. It will come to me in a minute because I was bookmarking it in my head and I wanted to ask you about—but yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve been in the healthcare field for a number of years but there’s been some parts of my life where I’ll say, “No, I don’t really feel stressed.” I’ve mentioned this before in another podcast. I used to get this eye twitch and it would just pop up. And if someone asked me, I would say, “No, I’m really not stressed” except this random eye twitch is happening. It’s like, how disconnected can I get? Well, I am stressed. This is an outward sign that something is going on or I’ll get acne and things like that. You just connect from it.

I had a really good question. So let’s just go on with the conversation and I’ll get to it. Gosh, I forgot about that.

EW: I’ve had people reach out to me, women in particular, who will say things like, “I feel this movement in my womb,” or, “I feel this little twinge,” or, “I’ve got something going on in my back,” or, “My kidney area is a little bit sensitive or something has shifted,” or, “I’ve got a little bit of indigestion.” Stuff like that. When they haven’t seemingly changed much recently either in terms of diet and their digestion seems normal. They don’t seem to have any problems with digestive health issues anyway from my perspective in what they tell me. Now I don’t get to see the whole picture and I’m not a medical doctor who’s run tests, but I also go to stress in those instances too. Well, could it be that it’s not your uterus but it’s actually a muscle spasm? Have you been sedentary for a long time? Could it be that it’s not your back and you’re holding tension in your lower back? Some people do. Could it be that you’re just nervous for whatever reason and that’s causing a little bit of gas or digestive offness or upset? So that all happens too. That’s much like your eye twitch. These could be physical signs of pent up emotions and stress.

And I’ll keep going if you don’t mind, but it’s Christiane Northrup, whom I know you adore and really appreciate and I do too, who really helped me realize this connection. She and her book ‘Women’s Bodies, Women’s Wisdom’ talks about how emotions get stuck in our bodies within our organs and can lead to imbalances and impair healthy organ function and can contribute to infertility. So there in lies why someone might be feeling some sort of or gives validity to the idea that someone can be feeling some sort of movement in their womb when they’re nothing there except the muscle and the uterus, the physical organ. She shares that we carry and hold sadness, bereavement and grief in our heart, in our uterus and our ovaries, and we certainly know there’s a great amount of bereavement and sadness and grief and infertility and the inability to get pregnant and/or pregnancy loss. That isn’t new news, right? We hold fear and anxiety in our kidneys and in our urinary tract.

So if a woman has a UTI and I feel like I can go there with her, I will ask if she feels that she’s safe or if she’s been dealing with some anxiety from something, an experience. That does come up on occasion. And fear and anxiety can also impair physical and male and female sexual function. So when we’re super fearful and anxious, libido is going to be suppressed. The ability to have intercourse properly, achieve an erection or have an orgasm could be suppressed. Sexual desire, in general. So a couple may not even make it to the bedroom because of fear and anxiety or the constant repeated need to plan something that should be really fun and something that should be really desirable and something you should want to do, right?

So I’m really grateful for that portion of her book, Dr. Northrup’s book. It really was one of the things that spurred this passion in me in a lot of the writing that I’ve done about the topic. It’s just really important to try to reframe those negative emotions and fear and doubt and anger and sadness and disbelief and guilt and shame and anything that feels inescapable when you’re on this journey. And the reframing is going to happen in a different way for everybody.

31:07 CL: Absolutely. In Chinese medicine every organ has a related emotion and, well, Chinese medicine originated 5000 years ago and they were saying back then that 70 percent of all diseases or imbalances originate with the emotions. I think in fertility, you get assessed by an IVF clinic and you get all your labs and then you become all these numbers. “I have low progesterone”, “My AMH is low.” You kind of remove yourself and forget the impact of the emotions with that.

EW: Absolutely.

31:49 CL: Even with endometriosis they did a study and they found that a great portion of women with severe endometriosis had some major sexual trauma in their lives and that got stored and created imbalances. This will come out more and more, right? I mean, with these type of interviews and the work of Dr. Christiane Northrup and all the other kind of pioneers out there talking about the mind-body connection. I mean, this is real. It’s not new age. It sounds like it because it’s so far removed from the medical model but the medical model is so flawed. It’s very flawed, I’m just going to say it. I’m not the only one who thinks that. It’s like that’s why people reach out and are searching because they’re not getting answers. We are spiritual being, we’re energy beings. It’s more than what a lab test can show.

I loved the interview with Dr. Christiane Northrup. I also highly encourage you to watch it. But she really emphasizes about the spiritual process of fertility. Maybe it’s going to be kind of out people’s comfort zone when she talks about the rituals of calling it a baby soul and things like that, or prayer or however, but there’s that spiritual connection. Don’t let yourself get just reduced to a bunch of numbers. It’s so much more than that.

EW: Absolutely. In your journey, you’re already doing so many things and taking supplements and using natural therapies and you’ve made diet changes and you are legitimately working on your stress, yet you’re not seeing the progress you want, or your body isn’t shifting in a way that the practitioners you’re working with want, it’s time to then take a step back from that thinking it’s woo-woo or new age or weird, and think about “what else could be impacting my success?” Is it my mind? Is it that I’m disconnected from my spiritual self? Do I really believe I deserve what I want and what I’m working toward? It’s not easy work. It’s not easy work but it’s a necessary step when you’re seemingly doing everything right and still not getting you the places that you want to be.

34:12 CL: It’s so frustrating because we’re bringing up all this stuff and like you said, it’s not easy work. You kind of have to go deep. And then the person sees so and so who’s not doing any of this and they’re on their—you know what I mean? It’s so unfair in that sense. I know that everyone has imbalances and weaknesses in their body and they show up in different areas. But I just want to voice that you might be listening to this and going, “Oh, you know, I have to do all this deep work where my neighbor doesn’t do anything and eats all this processed food and it doesn’t seem to affect her fertility.” Though now more and more children are born with issues. That’s another thing. We get so focused, “I need to get pregnant, I need to get pregnant. I’m going to do anything to get pregnant,” but really, the ultimate goal is to have a healthy baby while maintaining your own health. Because if you have a baby with special needs, I mean, you can just imagine. It’s a lifelong support that you’re going to give that child so you really want to have a self-sufficient healthy human being that you’re producing.

EW: That brings up two things for me. One is that this neighbor, what she’s doing doesn’t seemingly impact her fertility, you may not know her whole story. What you see isn’t behind closed doors, right? So this is back to the comparing your journey to someone else’s. And then, there’s a piece of this where you may feel like you have to dig deep but maybe you won’t. Maybe it’s not so deep because you know in your heart or in your mind that this something has been weighing on you for some time, right? Some of us have to dig deeper than others. We’re onion layers. Right? Anybody in this field knows that analogy. But you may also find that there is a natural therapy like EFT or self fertility massage that helps you connect to your own fertility; or fertility yoga, or writing positive affirmations that just clicks it for you. That just works. My thing is positive affirmations. I don’t know why or how but one day I was just at my wit’s end and like “I got to do something different. Why am I struggling so much?” And I just wrote, wrote, wrote until I wrote out a positive affirmation that I’ve been saying for the last 12 years almost daily. So understanding that you might just find that one thing and looking for it. It might take a little time to get to that one thing but you may just find it.

And the last thing that I wanted to talk or mention that was brought up, but I just lost. There. I lost something too.

37:09 CL: Well, I found my thing so maybe I can trigger. I love what you said and I help myself remember it because I’ve done like self-help therapy groups where we talk about that. There’s such a message in our society of soldier on, nose to the grindstone, and that sort of means like whatever emotions are coming up, just ignore and brave through. But I love what you said and I think it’s actually much more healthy and helpful. I think of like the old circuses where there’s that ring of fire and the lion goes through it. That’s the emotional state. Instead of trying to avoid those emotions—I love that advice—is really feeling the impact of those emotions. That can be scary and that might be where you need a fertility counselor or a trusted ear to help you through it. But to avoid and go, you know, when you have a chronic disease like cancer, “I’m a cancer warrior or survivor,” I mean, it denotes that you can be weak and vulnerable and I think sometimes that vulnerability, it can be really healing.

EW: Absolutely. Yeah. We are not Hercules or Wonder Woman. Those people aren’t real, right? We do get a message that we do need to be strong and do something more. But that do something more can be take the time to cry if you feel like you need to cry. It’s okay. It can be lay in bed for a while if you need to. Or a day. It can be seek help if you need it. Or talking with your partner. I find that for the people that I work with and myself because I am a feeling human being just like anybody else even though I’m not trying to get pregnant anymore, that if I stuff an emotion, it comes back to me and it will come back to me large and in charge multiple times before I go, “What the heck! Stop, Liz. Elizabeth,” I call myself Liz, but Elizabeth, “stop. What’s bringing this up? Deal with this right now to let it go or to help yourself move beyond it so that next time it’s not as mean when it comes up.” Or maybe whatever triggered it in the past won’t trigger it again. I’ll come back to my PMS day of rage. Finally it got to the point where my husband was like clockwork, “It’s this day, isn’t it?” Like, “oh, darn it.” “Yeah, it is so I’m going to take some time to myself. It’s not you, it’s me. I’m going to sit with this, figure it out. Read my herb books to find out whatever herb I can try. Breathe through it. Journal.” And then I realize that I too have the power to know when that day is coming so that I can either take time for myself, go for a walk, take the herbs, or just not be as reactive, try to stop being as reactive.

40:25 CL: PMS is hormonal imbalances, right, but’s real stuff coming. Yeah, I mean, not every single thing. It could be through the lens of a hormonal imbalance but if we’re stuffing feelings, yeah, like you said, it’s going to come back loud and in charge or however you put that. Right. Exactly. Oh, one thing I wanted to ask you. You have said a couple times in this interview ‘don’t compare.’ In a sense that’s kind of like, ‘relax’. How do you not compare? Give us some tools on that.

EW: Oh my goodness. It’s a hard one. In a sense it kind of is like, “just relax.” But not to the same level, I don’t think. I think some tools for not comparing are to really try to find the good thoughts. We all have them. We all think them about other things. So either keep a gratitude journal or use a daily mind-body program such as something like Circle & Bloom or mindfulness meditation, creating positive affirmations, meditate, yoga. Find some tool to help you find the positive thoughts, to transform the negative into positive. There’s research that we can do. It’s known that our brains can turn a negative thought into a positive one. It just takes a little bit of work and finding the tools to do that. The Emotional Freedom Technique which you’ve gone through and experienced and which there’s a podcast on is incredible in terms of helping transform or release the emotions. That’s what it helps you do. Then I have to go back to talking to a professional if you can’t get past the negative. If you can’t stop comparing yourself to someone else, it’s really important to get help, that extra level of help.

Ultimately, I think it’s important to remember that while you are trying to conceive, that doesn’t define you. You are a whole other person. You have hobbies or have them and you need to remember what they were. You have a heart, you have passions. You have morals and ethics. You have a relationship with your partner or your husband. You have friendships. You have a family. You are a sister, daughter, wife, maybe you’re already a mother, granddaughter, niece You have these pieces of yourself and infertility is just one of them. It’s an all-consuming one of them. I understand that. Those of us who work in this field also understand that. And I don’t want you ignoring your feelings. I’ve said that too. Stuffing them is not important but working at finding the tools to help yourself get through the negative and transform those negative thoughts to positive ones and stop comparing to someone else is really important.

You have to do the work. I can tell you try EFT but maybe you won’t like it, so you’re going to have to go find something else. I can say yoga has scientific benefits but maybe you don’t like yoga or you can’t do it or it makes you feel terrible. It’s not often the case; yoga isn’t often hated. But there are some religions who don’t promote doing yoga or don’t like yoga. Maybe you can’t meditate. Maybe your mind just won’t stop when you sit and try to be quiet and bringing yourself back to this breathing just isn’t your thing. So it’s really important to know that this is going to take a little bit of work to find a few tools that help.

44:19 CL: That’s great. I appreciate it. I also—kind of going back to the social media because where is the biggest comparisons being made? People really spotlight kind of the best parts of their life and when you see that whether it’d be Instagram of people you don’t or Facebook of your “friends”. That’s where I think the big comparisons and the jealousies and things like that really come up. So a detox of that I think is… I mean, some people can’t imagine disconnecting from that. But you really maybe put your hand on your heart and ask yourself. “Is this really…?”

EW: Yes.

44:56 CL: I mean, some people really thrive on it and it makes them feel good to be on there and I say “power to you” and they could feel really vulnerable on there. “I’m having a bad day. My IVF didn’t work” and they get tons of support and that’s our community. I say go for it, that sounds wonderful. But I think there’s a big portion of us that really feel kind of empty after spending time on there. So that’s something you really have to figure out for yourself what kind person, how is it affecting you.

EW: Right. Are my thoughts and actions standing in the way of my success, limiting my ability to move forward? Are they the cause of this emotional issue that’s come up or that repeatedly comes up?

45:41 CL: Exactly. Let’s touch upon herbs for a minute because I know that Dr. Google has so many great recommendations and it’s just like, “wow!” You just want to take them all. You read about ubiquinol and Maca and false unicorn root and “oh my gosh, they all seem to have great promise. What if I just kind of ordered them all and take them?” Is that problematic? Are these pretty just benign substances that you can just throw all together in a smoothie?

EW: Good questions. First of all, false unicorn root is endangered. So if you find one and if you do, move forward with caution. As an herbalist, I obviously love indoor plants. I use them very differently than I suggest the layperson or someone who’s not familiar with herbs uses them or I suggest they’re used differently to that person. There are herbs that aren’t for everyone. There are also herbs that are food herbs that are or considered “superfoods” that don’t fit into that not for everyone category really unless there’s an allergy or someone’s on a medication. So yes, Dr. Google will tell you there are multiple things that are effective for this, this and this issue. But if you’re in a place where you have a list of things that you want to order, stop yourself and reach out to someone who can guide you on whether or not those are things you really need. There isn’t a need to take something that your body doesn’t need or that you won’t benefit. An herbalist or midwife or a naturopath or someone trained in supplements, a nutritionist, there are multiple names for this, are going to be able to help you understand if you need or not. Not everything is 100 percent perfectly safe because it is natural, I’ll be honest. So just move forward with caution.

The other thing about going to Dr. Google is find resources that are reputable. The American Herbalists Guild is incredibly reputable. Natural fertility websites; Natural Fertility Info, Natural Fertility shop, we are reputable. There are doctors like Dr. Aviva Romm and Dr. Christiane Northrup and Dr. Tori Hudson. Naturopaths are sharing information. There are more. These are just people that are popping into my head right now but truly find reputable information. The thing that gets my goat, for lack of a better phrase, the most is when someone goes to a forum where other people are sharing their experiences and the layperson is commenting about what they did that that’s how they get their information on what they try.

So chat rooms and different forums where people can type questions and you really don’t know if the moderator is qualified to answer it or even answering, those aren’t reputable sources for herbal information. There are many others out there. I guess other than speaking that and having you share it on our behalf, it’s hard to know what is reputable, I guess.

I don’t particularly love WebMD. I’m sorry to anyone who might hear this that does. It’s not my favorite place to go. I think there’s a lot of hype on some other sites as well but there are people who know what they’re talking about. You just have to seek them. Seek them out and find them.

49:37 CL: I mean, another reason to go to a professional, right, to consult with because it gets a little confusing out there. I was told that Maca, I mean, Maca is crazy popular and it seems amazing in its potential and benefits that it can create an imbalance if it’s not a one size fits all type food or herb, though it seems like it. I guess in some countries you need a prescription for it.

EW: That would sense. Yeah, I’m sure that’s true. But Maca is a food. It is a root vegetable. In Peru where it’s primarily grown and sources, Peruvians eat it like a root vegetable regularly. That is not something most of us who haven’t done that for generations or know how to do really should do. Maca is processed when we get it, right? It’s powdered and dried. It can be red, golden, or black. All of them tell different benefits. And while it is relatively safe for most of us, it isn’t to be combined with any medication. There is some evidence that red and black Maca can interfered with healthy thyroid function for some people. If you choose a Maca powder that’s not gelatinized, you’re most likely to have gastric upset. A woman who’s 100 pounds or less, a petite woman is going to have a very strong effect compared to someone my stature at 150 pounds or more. Just grabbing a bag and dumping a scoop in your smoothie and not understanding how many milligrams you’re taking or if that’s what you should be taking for what you’re using it for, is really careless, to be honest. Maca increases energy like crazy for most people. It shouldn’t be taken after 1:00 usually. It’s not an evening drink and they don’t throw it in your nighttime decaf which hopefully woman battling infertility aren’t doing anyway. So there are a lot of things to take into consideration.

Like I said, just because it’s natural or a food doesn’t mean it’s for everyone and that’s not unlike raw dark green leafy vegetables for women with underactive thyroids. Right? It’s best to lightly cook them. There are so many things that are healthy but that doesn’t mean that everyone should consume them in the exact same way.

52:22 CL: Thank you. How do we find out more about you?

EW: I work for The Natural Fertility Company. We are the NaturalFertilityShop.com and Natural-fertility-info.com. We sell products on our shop and have an incredible yet small customer service team, customer care team, we call them. We are 10 people strong only. We’ve been around for 11 years now—and 9 women, 1 man. Anyway, so we do sell product. We’re happy to educate you about that product. We know there are other products out there but we have our own line. Then we have Natural-fertility-info.com where myself and the company’s founder Hethir Rodriguez and my colleague herbalist Sarah Abernathy write and publish informational guides and articles weekly. All the information on our website is free. We do not conduct research as one would in a lab but we do valid research in order to publish the information that we have. You’ll see all of our reference lists and where we pull our information from. We keep an eye on studies repeatedly. We look at what’s happening in the natural product industry. We use experts for information. So aside from reading it and going there and learning about the website, I can’t really convince you of anything different. Right? We’re a reputable source. I was talking about that earlier.

But anyway, we also have a presence on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Periscope. I’m actually live once a week on Periscope TV. Pinterest. We are on social media too. So people can find us and comment and connect with us through any of those avenues. Email, chat, phone. All of those things, yeah.

54:22 CL: Okay, and I’ll put all of that in the podcast. All those that you just named there. I’m sure that if you have been trying to conceive for a few months and you have come across a Natural Fertility Info article because you guys are quite active and that’s awesome, on YouTube and everywhere else. I love that.

I really enjoyed this interview. I feel like you gave such solid grounding, wonderful advice. I think if you’re listening to this, it’s going to shift something in you. It did in me. Because you’re dealing with fertility issues, you’re dealing with some other struggle. I guess that is life. I don’t think life has to be a struggle but there’s always kind of something that you’re trying to work on and I think it’s great advice across the board but we are focusing on fertility and I just think give yourself a big hug. You’re not alone, obviously. So a couple of the takeaways is connect with someone and sometimes, I don’t know, as I get older when I’m dealing with an issue, I kind of become more introverted. I don’t as younger reach out and tell your friends your whole story. You become more private and sort of sacred about your struggle and then it can get really big and weird inside and kind of make you feel dark. So I really believe in counseling and there’s fertility counseling and coaches, because they get it and they’re not going to give you just—people want to help you but they don’t know what to say. That’s why your uncle at Thanksgiving tells you you just need to relax and have more sex. He’s not trying to be totally obnoxious. It’s just people don’t know what to say so you go to a professional who can really listen and give you educated advice and guide you so that you’re not going to Dr. Google and taking a bunch of crazy herbs.

Maybe you’re detoxing off social media. You’re getting a tailored plan. Then you’re finding some way to make those mind-body connections and be really mindful about the emotions that you’re going through and feel safe kind of experiencing those emotions if you have someone right there next to you. Sometimes not physically but maybe on Skype or whatever kind of helping you navigate through that emotional maze. We’re deeply emotional creatures and we need help with that because we are away from our communities and tribes, you know. Sometimes social media is not that community though it’s supposed to be that way. It can make you feel more isolated. So thank you so much. That was wonderful advice. I really appreciate it.

EW: You’re welcome.

57:25 CL: I will contact you as soon as this is live.

EW: Fantastic. Thank you for having me on behalf of the company. I really appreciate the time that we had together and seeing you live and I truly do hope that women and couples will benefit from hearing this talk and moreover feel empowered to feel what they feel.

57:47 CL: I believe they will. Thank you, Elizabeth.

EW: Thank you. Alright. Take care.

57:50 CL: You too. Bye-bye.

EW: Bye-bye!