Harnessing The Mind-Body Connection with Circle Bloom Founder Joanne Verkuilen – #6

0:28 Charlene Lincoln: Welcome! I am really excited. We have a very special guest. I’m honored to have the founder and partner of CircleBloom.com, Joanne Verkuilen. Did I do that okay, the last name?

Joanne Verkuilen: You did awesome.

0:49 CL: Okay. Thank you so much. Circle + Bloom was born out of Joanne’s passion for helping women overcome stress and infertility linked to stress. She was diagnosed with PCOS in her late teens and was told that having a child would be very difficult for her. She had two very different pregnancy experiences but now is a mom to two happy, beautiful children. Awesome. Congratulations.

Joanne delivers the guided meditations you’ll find in the Circle + Bloom programs among other things. She seeks to advance mind-body awareness and is a contributor to the fertility community and conversation in the United States of America. I would think globally at this point.

JV: Yeah, we are. Actually, we do have a pretty strong global reach for sure. That’s been from the beginning, yeah.

1:49 CL: Thank you. I wanted to say, again, giving fertility treatments, when I discovered your guided fertility medications, I would just play them in the background because why not supercharge the fertility treatment and then we’re going to talk about it — why not supercharge your life with these fertility-guided meditations. It looks like you’ve expanded on the product line because fertility issues are stressful but life is stressful. So thanks for supporting us that aren’t trying to have a baby, because yeah, it’s a little overwhelming out there. So thank you, Joanne, for giving us your time and welcome.

You had PCOS and it says you had two very different pregnancy experiences. Is it because of the guided meditation that you used in one of the pregnancies? Tell us a little bit about that.

JV: Sure. I guess what I meant by that, it wasn’t so much after I conceived; it was leading up to conception. Actually both pregnancies, if I were to just look at them, look at those 8 months to 9 month period, I would say that they were actually very similar in terms of how I felt and what I went through, which is I was lucky to have very easy pregnancies, easy “relative”. But it was leading up to that and the conception period, when we were first married, we had this term going around that we would use between the two of us and say “are we ready to pull the goalie?” You’re young and you’re just married. So I was definitely on birth control even though I just had no idea what. I knew I had PCOS and I had had it at that point for about 10 years. And so in the back of my mind I just didn’t know what was going to happen. I knew that there could be issues. But within six months of the goalie being pulled, we conceived naturally with no issue. It was kind of a “Oh my gosh! Like, that was awesome.”

4:00 CL: Ideal. Smooth.

JV: Right. We weren’t really trying. I wasn’t tracking when I was ovulating. I wasn’t upset when I got my period. There was just no stress. It was, let’s see what happens. It was like I opened up the palm of my hand and I just let the butterfly land and I wasn’t grasping at it. So, that was my experience then.

Then when we wanted to have our second child, completely different mindset, completely different approach. Completely different grasping, wanting, trying hard, figuring out when it would make sense for us and the stress starts whirling around and swirling in. I can remember being in the bathroom at my work, a pregnancy test and walking out and dejected. That went on for a few years. And in between and I also got pregnant two times in between that both ended in miscarriage and it just altered my perception of my life, of who I was even though I had a beautiful healthy, at that point, 2- to 3-year-old.

So, secondary infertility, I’m always so sensitive to when women are going through it because people think, “Oh well, you already had it. Who are you to worry and you can’t complain,” and all these things. No, it just doesn’t work that way. When your body is telling you and your mind is telling you the desire for as many children as you want, there should be no restriction on that. So it was a completely different experience and very eye-opening. I ended up going on metformin, which it was interesting. My second miscarriage came within like a two-month period of time before I successfully got pregnant. My cycles are all over the place so I didn’t know when really I was ovulating. I was all over the place. I also am very sensitive to other women with PCOS because I just know how frustrating it is and all the other side effects, the fun side effects that come with PCOS.

It was within that, it was like my body was clearing itself of something. Just that’s what my intuition told me. It was very sad of course but then it was like my body was just, I don’t know what, and I was using metformin. THe Clomid did nothing for me but metformin with the PCOS seemed to balance things. Anyway, I got pregnant the second time. Beautiful, healthy two girls. That was it for us.

I’m talking a lot. But the story is linked to how I got to Circle + Bloom because after I got through all of that and we’re holding our baby and my best friend started to go through it, they had gotten married a couple of years after us and their first child came. I think they got pregnant fairly easily, quickly. The second child, not so much. Longer periods of time. She was starting to question, going to doctors. Unexplained infertility. They ended up going through IVF and IUI.

But just seeing her from more of a distance and I could see what she was going through and the stress and the emotional wrap. Like, that was me. And so stepping away and I’ve always been in interested in the mind-body connection, and my husband and I were talking. My husband totally agrees with all this as well and he’s like, “Steph (her name is Stephanie), she’s all wrapped up. She’s all stressed out.” And your body, as an emotional trigger the stress just tightens everything up. She did get pregnant through IVF. So they have four children and the second two both came through adoption. She’s as old as I am, so late 40s, sort of like the past 10 years they have used no birth control.

So anyway, I came through that and I’m like, alright, this is something that I can do for her, and it became this business idea. So that’s kind of the birth of not only my two children but then the birth of Circle + Bloom which is like it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done. I’m so emotionally wrapped up in it.

8:38 CL: Yeah. It seems like it’s your passion, it’s your mission in life. That’s amazing. When something comes out from a deep personal experience and then someone you really care about, you’re talking about your friend Steph going through it, there’s a lot of heart and soul in what you do. Tell me about that. You’ve had a lot of success stories.

I’ve been on your website for the past couple of years and I read some of these stories. These are women who struggled. Their fertility journey was a rollercoaster, right? Most of ours is. As much as I believe in that mind-body connection, I mean you go to a fertility specialist or they should be more called IVF specialists because they don’t really do with all the fertility stuff, and they start telling you all the things that are wrong with you, lab test-wise and then that starts affecting the mind and the spirit. Then it really shuts things down but it’s amazing how much it can really affect things because these are women who’ve talked about multiple failed IVFs. Just going through multiple miscarriages, using your program and kind of reprogramming their thought processes, doing the meditations and then having these amazing outcomes.

JV: It is still jaw-dropping to me when we receive these emails so full of heart and gratitude to us. It floors. It gets me so emotional I sometimes don’t even really know how to react. Because I definitely try not to say, “Oh, well. that was me. I can take credit for that.” No, that is not. But at the same time, there’s almost like a barricade I have up against it a little bit. You can take a little bit of credit for creating these programs that these women are having just incredible success on. And I was just able to connect the dots. I was able to connect the whole body of research that talks about the stress and fertility connection which Google it, you can look on our website, there’s all kinds of studies.

In fact, just taking stress in and of itself, there’s a lot of information out there. It’s becoming such a focused area for health. But the AMA for example says that they estimate 80 percent of all health issues, 80 percent are related to stress. So when you think about that and the impact, so you’ve got that and you’ve got that component, and then the other component I was able to piece together was this idea of – and I don’t use the word “hypnotherapy” because what we do is not technically hypnotherapy, but it does enable you to connect into your unconscious, your subconscious which they say is really what guides the body.

Ninety-five percent of what you’re experiencing both day to day in and within your body, emotional responses, that’s all subconscious. So it’s 95 percent, they estimate; the other 5 percent is your thinking rational brain. But what’s really guiding your day-to-day decisions, those gut feelings, even your heart beating, it’s all subconscious.

So I’ve always been interested in that. So enabling to then basically enable yourself to talk within, to give yourself and to open those lines of communication can clear so much. They talk about repressed emotions and how repressed emotions, i.e. also stress that manifests itself as feelings of stress today but it’s like these repressed emotions. I will tell you I’m the (A) number one person that talks about repressed emotions. I’ve never really talked about it on a podcast, but my father died at 12. I was blessed with all these things early on in life but my father dying, my mother turning to alcohol, these were major life events that I know manifest within. Whether or not that has caused certain issues, I know it has. So it’s a matter of pushing those emotions up and I do believe a way to do that is through tapping into this relaxation, being able to communicate with inside your body. So that’s why I firmly believe that we can do this for all sorts of health-related issues.

13:40 CL: Absolutely. Dr. Iva talks about studies with severe cases of endometriosis being linked to past sexual trauma. In Chinese medicine, a 5000-year-old science of medicine, they have always recognized that emotions create 70% of disease, our emotional imbalances.

JV: There you go. I so agree with that. How can you then take that information? I think that’s actually really good news. I’m like, well, that’s something that you can actually modify and help yourself and take control over because that will tell you go to any either IVF specialist or any doctor trained in western medicine.

14:23 CL: And you’re handing over your power to them and saying, “What can you do to manipulate my body to do something?”

JV: Exactly. So you’re not empowered, you leave everything up to them as individuals and they’re flawed. They don’t know all the answers. They may claim that they do but they don’t. Everybody is different, everybody’s going to react differently. Your belief system comes into play. So you want to talk about the placebo effect – that’s all belief system and being able to heal yourself which is amazing in and of itself. The body’s innate ability to heal itself which I firmly believe is the reason why I get so many success stories. Then so combining all together and saying I have control over that and I can take this information and think about ways.

That’s one area of what our programs do. It gives you a tool to enable to do that. I also talk about journaling and talking with other women that are going through it. All these ways to just say “I need to get this up and out.” Because what you’re going through, if you’re going through this pain of infertility right now, is that you’re in a downward spiral so it’s compounded. Not only do you have repressed emotions, we all do, but then what you’re going through is adding to that and it’s creating a toxic environment inside where everything is tight, the blood is not flowing. You’re not breathing deeply, you’re not accessing the ability for the body to heal itself to bring balance to the hormonal endocrine system and to just allow things to happen, opening up your palm.

16:05 CL: I love that. There’s so many messages that we create in our heads and I’m just echoing what I’ve heard, is if the body is not functioning to create new life, then you’re somehow broken. Talk to me about these meditations. Are they negating those messages? Tell me a little bit more about what’s going on in the background.

JV: It’s interesting. In our program, I work with both REs (reproductive endocrinologists), there was one in particular that I reviewed all of my scripts with to make sure especially on the IVF side. But then Dr. Bernie Siegel who is a New York Times best-selling author, he has been the mind-body guru since the mid-80s, he’s on our board of advisors and he’s helped me. His specialty has always been in oncology. I just say that because again I was able to piece together these things but I asked for support to make sure of what I was doing.

The programs are broken into three things. First is you basically get yourself into a really relaxed state. So the 5 percent, the rational mind, the ego is kind of quiet. The lines of communication open up when things get quiet up here, all those chatter. That enables you to get into that relaxed state.

Then we do a guided visualization of specifically what your body should be doing during that time of either the cycle or your medicated cycle, whatever protocol you’re going through. So every day is different and it tracks to that.

But then at the end, we also offer up an emotional release part of the program and that enables you. Because what happens is the emotional side of this is so all-encompassing. I will tell you in the society today you are extremely lucky if you’ve got somebody that you can trust and really enables you to open up your emotions to talk about, to let it out and to exercise it and to think about it in different ways. I think what happens is that we just bottle it up and we just march on and we’re going to do it, we’re going to get pregnant. And all these emotions I’m feeling, I’m just going to put it down and not deal with it. There’s emotions of jealousy. You’re seeing birth announcements on Facebook.

18:33 CL: Just terrible, insensitive advice. Not only men want to just fix things, your girlfriend does too. They’re like, why don’t you just do this? I remember just having a miscarriage and a cousin at Christmas, she starts talking to me about IVF and I was thinking, well, I can get pregnant, I just can’t maintain the pregnancy. But I was like, I don’t even want to have this conversation right now.

JV: The conversation with you, right. They’re coming from it from the standpoint of, “Ah! You can do X, Y and Z.” They’re not understanding truly what you’re going through. The holidays are always difficult. Again, going back to that whole idea of repressed emotions and being able to work them, journaling, listening to your intuition, strengthening, that’s an area that I’d like to write about more is how to tap into your intuition and strengthen those lines of communication again so you can really start to understand yourself from the inside out.

My friend Rosanne Austin, she does webinars for us on a monthly basis for our subscribers and our customers. She approaches fertility, she’s a coach and she’s like, “Damn it! Let’s use this time in our lives even though it’s one of the most painful things we’re going through, that we’ve ever had to go through, let’s use it to just turn our lives upside down and come out of the other side better, stronger. Whether or not it ends with a baby or not, learning from yourself, understanding at a much deeper level who you are,” and I just love that very positive, determined, empowering approach to going through this process of infertility.

20:31 CL: Joanne, you have a very receptive audience that’s getting that message, they’re already listening to your program. And that 95 percent of the subconscious is getting nurtured every day so that when she says something like that, I feel like your heart is more open and you can go “yes.” Because if you weren’t working on that subconscious level and this woman was like, “I’m going to be her cheerleader,” and tell you even if it doesn’t, it’s like, “Ugh!” Because maybe all your trauma and all the inner chatter is just too loud that that message doesn’t even seem like something you want to hear.

JV: That’s on point. I respect that highly and I agree. I don’t think if I were going through it, that message, thinking back, I don’t think I would have resonated with that. But I do espouse it because I do think that using this time, coming through the other side a different person, it’s guaranteed you will. To think about how to understand yourself at that deeper level I think will be a positive that you will look back on as you’re going through and you’re thinking, “that’s not a positive, I don’t care about that.” But after the fact you look back, just like I do now, and I know for sure that I’ve changed.

21:48 CL: Absolutely. A couple of things come to mind. I love that you said you used to not really call it meditation. But now, meditation is like a common language in our culture. But I’m so glad it’s a guided meditation because I’ve spent my whole life feeling semi-guilty that I’ve never been able to establish a real meditation practice. I should be completely enlightened right now. But I’m not. A lot of times it’s like you sit down quietly to meditate and it’s just a circus up in the head.

The guided meditations, really, it has a different effect on the mind, doesn’t it? It’s not like just sit quietly and just clear your thoughts. It’s feeding the subconscious. I think that’s so important.

JV: I agree. I practice meditation but it’s funny, it’s ironic. I’m good at it, I can do it but I don’t feel like I’m any kind of guru status or anything along those lines. I almost need it guided as well for myself. It’s hard for me to listen to my own voice but I started to think about doing that because there’s some repressed things that I want to work through and there are certain things in my life that I want now like more joy and more comfort as to where I am in my life. I’m thinking about recording for myself some of those and being very specific about “okay, here is…” Because I agree with you, sitting down and just quieting the mind, it’s so hard too. But I think that that’s the practice and that’s the practice of it.

So you get up and you’re like, “That was not worth it at all. All I did was think the whole time.” But I think that’s the point. It’s like being more aware of what it is you are thinking and so you get up and you don’t think anything’s changed or happened, but actually, it has. I think that there’s a time and a place for both modalities, if there is something you want to work through either health-related, repressed emotions. But I also do think training the brain just to be quiet and to focus on the thoughts can really be impactful as well.

24:06 CL: Thank you. I totally agree. It’s like me saying, “Well, I can’t ever get my three-year-old to settle down,” so I’ll never try ever again to try to have those little quiet moments. That’s what I’m saying to the mind. Absolutely, you do. Even if your mind is like “well, my mind is busy,” what it is busy of and taking some breaths and really slowing down.

Advice to women who feel like they’ve done everything and nothing is working – this is sort of what we’ve been talking about before but could a sabotaging belief be what’s standing in the way of conceiving?

JV: It’s a hard general statement to make because again, knowing the audience, it’s really hard to say yeah, that’s your problem and so just go work through that. We’ve seen that happen and we’ve seen the very positive effects of it but I think as you’re deep into this journey and day to day it’s more and more difficult for you to say, well, this is your sabotaging belief and so you got to change that. I think you got to go even deeper and say “Okay, I need to accept who I am today. I need to accept where I am. I need to find gratitude actually in where I am today,” which is really hard to do, I understand. But going through the root, the base, the foundation from which if you study this idea of “like attracts like” and kind of at the quantum level, how your thoughts are vibrations and things like that, which I’m starting to really dig into because I find it really fascinating, where this “like attracts like” and everything is energy.

To embrace that and to say, okay, I need to be at the level of the answer which is not easy and I wouldn’t even know, I would have to really think through as to how even to help our subscribers do that. But to be at a vibrational state and to be at that level where you’re happy at the end result, so whether that’s having a baby, being as happy as you would be now and again appreciating how hard that would be, but I guarantee that that shift in your energy and in your focus could make a big difference.  

26:52 CL: I agree. I think that’s something you need assistance with, most of us do. Going back to that same question, if you’re listening today and you are doing everything and you think, “Well, I don’t know if this would really help me.” Is there anything else? You said that the AMA, they were saying that stress affects 80% of chronic health conditions or that was sort of the wording of it. Is there other statistics that you can talk about as far as fertility goes? Because you said on the website there were some studies done in relation to fertility.

JV: I’m trying to think. I used to have a lot of these things off the top of my head. There was a study done by the University of Emory that looked at the link between stress and infertility. I want to say something like there was the control group and there was the group that went through cognitive behavioral therapies so they were able to really witness and understand their psychological state and understand how stress was impacting them on a day to day emotional basis so that they could influence that through their own, whether journaling or their own meditation or whatever it was.

And Dr. Alice Domar who is in Harvard as well, she’s done a few studies that looks that the impact of exactly what I was just saying, so mind-body techniques as it relates to stress. I want to say that the impact was improvement in pregnancy rates of up to 60 percent. And don’t quote me on the 60 percent but the point of it was, it doesn’t matter what the percentage was.

28:52 CL: It was significant.

JV: The point of it was that it was newsworthy, it was definitely a line in the sand. It was statistically important enough that it was published and it was peer reviewed. There were two different studies and this dates back now probably 10 years that these studies were done. It’s funny because actually we’re working with the University of South Dakota right now which I’m really excited about too. They’re using our programs in conjunction with a few other modalities.

They did a small test that showed statistically significant results and now they’re going to a broader test. I think they’re trying to get as much as 100 women in this study, the second round. But the first round definitely showed really high numbers of feeling better. I don’t know if it was rating pregnancy at that point but it was just feeling in more control, all those feelings of feeling more positive about the situation that people were in.

Anyway, so I’m really proud of that. I think in the next year we’ll have firm statistics as to how that particular study has shook out. I’m proud that they are using our programs as a component of that study. It would be pretty cool to see the results.

30:16 CL: Absolutely. I look forward to that. I don’t need that study to come out, personally, because I’ve just seen it time and time again.

JV: And like, what does it hurt? The only thing it would hurt is maybe you’re taking some time, but that doesn’t hurt, that’s giving yourself time.

30:33 CL: Yeah. But I don’t even want to minimize it that way. It’s not like what does it hurt. It’s actually extremely powerful and I just think it’s just a missing piece of the puzzle if someone is not implementing it and like we said, we’re not saying suddenly you need to sit down and build up this meditation practice. No. You lay down and you relax, you feel better and you’re getting fed these positive messages. Honestly, I started trying to get pregnant at 40. One year into it, getting my period, I went into a dark place and I was like, “Gosh, look at me.”  I spiraled so quickly. I really needed something to adjust my inner thought processes on a daily basis.

JV: Another study that Dr. Domar talks about a lot is that they rate the stress levels and feelings of anxiety of women who are going through infertility as high as if you’ve been diagnosed with a life-threatening disease like cancer or heart disease. It is that impactful. So cancer diagnosis, infertility – same reaction internally. Everything closes down.

31:48 CL: I know.

JV: And I’m telling you the numbers are only going to get worse in terms of the numbers of people experiencing this issue and people don’t talk about it either and that’s another component that I feel is really too bad. They shut it down, they don’t want to talk about it. It’s really hard to talk about it. It’s hard to find people who know how to even react. So friends, if they’re not going through it they don’t understand.

32:15 CL: Very painful. Very isolating. You know what, the conversation is now coming up into this very public form. A lot of celebrities like Gabrielle Union just came out. I think she’s had eight miscarriages, several failed IVFs. It’s these high-profile people that are coming out. Tyra Banks. And other celebrities are saying, actually, we want it to be something that we can openly talk about. A lot of women, a lot of couples are suffering privately and it doesn’t need to be that way. It’s nothing shameful. You’re not doing anything wrong. So anyways, that’s a great positive change.

Now, one thing is can you tell us your website because your website is amazing and also isn’t there a sample guided meditation on there?

JV: Yeah. Try it out. It’s completely free. Just go to CircleBloom.com. The home page is actually where you’ll see “start today”. It’s just literally two steps and you’re in to either download it. All of our programs are accessed online from your iPhone or iPad or whatever. You just log in. That was a recent change. It used to be downloading this huge file.

33:37 CL: I remember that. Yeah, the big zip drive or something.

JV: New website. New way to listen. It’s awesome. I’m so happy about that and we’re trying to figure out other things we can give. We also have a couple of other free programs. There’s a program for cancer that’s free. There’s a program for if you’ve experienced a miscarriage or loss. That will always be free. It’s just one of those things I felt strongly that we just need to support our community that way. So that will always be free. The programs, there’s 6 hours. If you access the Natural Cycle or the IVF Programs, every day is different. There’s about 15 minutes in total per day. Some of our customers listen twice a day – once in the morning and once at night. Like you said, having it on the background just to reinforce the concepts, reinforce the mind-body connection. I think it’s come through that I’m very passionate about it.

Cancer is another area that I really want to explore. Like Breast Cancer Awareness Month, all the cancer programs are really discounted. But infertility is really where we started and now we’re adding other modalities, but we also have things like changing your mindset, thinking about weight loss, thinking about sleeping better. Sleep is so important. We kind of forget that, what’s in your toolkit. Sleep, sleep, sleep. Get yourself one of those sleep masks. I can’t live without them now. Oh my gosh, it just blocks out the light. I go into my own little cocoon and I sleep so much better with that eye mask. So sleep is so important. Journaling.

Anyway, yeah, we’ve got a lot of stuff. Tons of articles, research. We’re posting once a week at least.

35:38 CL: And the testimonials, those are very inspirational. You’re like, “Oh my gosh! That person went through just a roller coaster of different things.”

JV: Page upon page upon page. We’ve influenced and had over 40,000 I think now, women listen to some form of our program across the world. I’m just blessed. I want to continue to grow it, just getting the word out there. So I’m very happy and I’m very full of gratitude to be on this show. It’s kind of what I’m trying to do more and more, is to continue to get the word out as much as I can. It’s been 8 years and counting.

36:23 CL: Wow. Then I must have been in the first couple of years of the program because now I think it’s definitely been 6 or 7 years ago that I came across it somehow.

JV: If anybody wants to reach out to me personally, it’s just simply Joanne@circlebloom.com. Our company name is Circle & Bloom but we just truncated it for the URL, but I don’t care, Circle Bloom, Circle & Bloom. But CircleBloom.com is the email address, Joanne@circlebloom.com. Please reach out. Any questions, anything I can do for you. Anything, just reach out. I’d be happy to help.

37:02 CL: Oh, thanks so much. Before we wrap it up, if we can end it on this unless you want to add anything, do have a favorite fertility affirmation you can share with our listeners?

JV: That’s a good one. Yeah, I do. With breathe in, breathe out, it’s constantly as you breathe in, just think love and acceptance for who I am and where I am today. Breathe out. Breathe in love and acceptance for who I am and where I am today. And breathe out. It’s honoring you, your body as it stands today regardless of where you are in your journey and just trying to let go of any of the three biggies: shame, guilt, jealousy. Breathe in that positive.

Breathe in love and acceptance for who you are, opening and visualizing, just opening the whole abdomen area, the bottom part of your body and visualizing just easy blood flow and energy moving throughout the whole body internally. And then breathing that kind of idea of love and acceptance for myself, breathing out any kind of negative emotion. If you can just come back to that modality and meditation, you can do that anywhere anytime, quieting the thought, quieting the body and then just opening. At the same time opening to the acceptance of what is today which changes your vibration a bit. It just increases and ups you on the emotional scale from fear maybe, those feelings of lack and shame and fear upwards to quiet and increase your vibration. So I hope that helps.

39:22 CL: It helped me; I feel more open and calm. If I can get on my soapbox for a second, if you’re listening and you go, “Oh I’m so busy. I can’t do this,” this is what I suggest: You remove that Facebook app off your phone and maybe don’t check it anymore through the holidays. Believe me, those friends will still be there. You do this instead. This is feeding your mind with amazing, amazing messages and then check out of the social media stuff. I don’t miss it.

JV: High five.

39:55 CL: Exactly. I do not miss it. Then you’ll cruise through the holidays just in a different headspace.

JV: That’s what I wish for everybody. I really do. There’s no lack. If somebody announces that they’re pregnant, it doesn’t mean that… Just looking at it, believe me, I’ve been there, I know it. I still go through those feelings about different subjects and that’s what I was referring earlier. I’m always figuring out what’s trapped inside, I’m going to pull those out and so I can be the best person I can be – full of joy, full of light, high-vibe living so that I can be the positive influence to everybody that is in my life and so that’s what I hope for everybody.

40:45 CL: Yes. That’s a great way to end it. Thank you so much. That was so wonderful. So, www.circlebloom.com. Please go check out the meditations and thank you so much for doing the miscarriage meditation. Please don’t minimize if you’ve had a miscarriage. When I had a miscarriage, people would say, “Well how far along were you?” I know they were trying to calculate in their mind how devastating was this actually.

JV: Oh God!

41:09 CL: It doesn’t matter. You were planning that child for a long time, it’s devastating. Please heal from that. It really helps you conceive to heal from a miscarriage instead of just kind of pushing your body to try to conceive again. That seemed to resonate with you, Joanne. You get that.

JV: Oh gosh, yeah, please. It doesn’t matter. No. So, thank you.

41:33 CL: All right. Thank you so much. Blessings to you. Thank you so much. Can I invite you on again and we can continue the conversation at another time?

JV: Yeah, absolutely.

41:42 CL: Okay. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.

JV: Thank you.